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joannavenneri - all messages by user

8/4/2011 1:29:46 AM
Apostrophes Thank you for sending the print page. However, I need more help with this. I don't see where apostrophes are missing from #10. And I'm sorry, but I don't understand #11. What do !s and *s mean? Is this explained in the directions or elsewhere in the text? Please send the page that explains this. It may not work to braille !s and *s literally as printed and that's why you're asking about it. In order to determine the best way to handle this, I have to know what it means in the first place if that information is available somewhere in the print. If not, let me know and we'll figure this out as it is.

Without seeing the other page, yes, use the letter sign with 528s if that is exactly how it is printed.

--Joanna
8/4/2011 1:54:26 AM
Alphabetic page numbers There is a little confusion here.

-------------------------------------#bb is a page change indicator. As you know, there is no blank after after a page change indicator for a centered or cell-5 heading. In fact, the page change indicator is an EXCEPTION to the blank line rules for centered and cell-5 headings. This is addressed in Braille Foramts.

------tw5ty-two is an alphabetic page change indicator. As given in the Update that you have referred to, the rule is DIFFERENT. It says no blank line UNLESS REQUIRED by other formats. A cell-5 heading REQUIRES a blank line preceding. A centered heading REQUIRES a blank line preceding. The example given in the Update right under this rule clearly shows a blank line between the alphabetic page change indicator and a cell-5 heading. Therefore, there should be a blank line preceding the centered heading in your braille.

--Joanna
8/4/2011 6:18:29 PM
Apostrophes I'm afraid I still don't understand. Are you saying that !s means more than one !(exclamation point)? And *s means more than one *(asterisk)?

--Joanna
8/4/2011 11:08:04 PM
Alphabetic page numbers I think you are being distracted by the running head. There are two different things being said in that paragraph.

1. When there is a running head the alphabetic page numbers follows immediately. In other words, NO BLANK LINE between the running head and the alphabetic page change indicator.

2. New topic. No blank line after the alphabetic page number unless required by other formats. Not talking about the running head any more. Done. Now we're talking about what to do after the alphabetical page numbers. And a cell-5 and centered heading must be preceded by a blank line.

This is very confusing and that is why you are confused. I wish it has been written more clearly.

By the way, it's the same rule as the closing box line. No blank line there either unless required by other formats. Same thing.

--Joanna
8/5/2011 3:39:43 AM
wide side-by-side columns Thanks for your patience. This page has complex formatting issues to it that I have been considering. I do appreciate the print page that you sent. It's essential for understanding what you are working with and the precise nature of the questions you are asking. I'm going to answer in two parts.

First we'll try that middle section regarding the plural article des. You have referred to it as being in columns. This is not columned material. It looks like columns because it happens to be printed that way, that's all. For purposes of braille formatting this material is neither useful, nor easily read in columns. These are long sentences. What you want to do is to arrange them so that the full sentence can be easily read and the comparison of the article forms is quickly accessible to the reader.

The singlemost difficult issue in foreign language braille is translation and the shifting of one language to another, especially in close proximity. It is easy to visually identify each language and easy for the print reader to see when a shift it made from one language to the other. This is not true in braille and so a number of formats are used to show language shift that include usage of special typeface and the actual formatting of the material. You have described one of these methods with regard to tranlations that are too long for a single braille line. This is NOT a good usage here for these comparison sentences. That format tells the reader translation is taking place and the reader will be poorly served by wasting time discovering that nothing is being translated. Do not use that format here. And these these are not columns, so don't do that.

These sentences are actually examples and should be treated as displayed material. Each pair of sentences is treated as an example with a blank line between. Use 1-3 and appropriate typeface emphasis of the article.

Il achète du vin.
Il n’achète pas du vin.

Je mange de la viande
Je ne mange pas de viande.

The second part of my response will be regarding the translated list and sentences at the bottom of the page that you have referred to as a table. This is not a table, but two lists. There are competing formats here because at least one of these lists is a translated vocabulary which also has formatting requirements. I'll present suggestions for dealing with in the second part.

--Joanna
8/6/2011 2:06:39 AM
Apostrophes I see now. The student is to change !s to !'s and *s to *'s. Use the dot 4 symbols indicator to show that the ! is the symbol itself. Same for the asterisk. List @6 and @55 as Special Symbols identified as exclamation point symbol and asterisk symbol, respectively. Use the letter sign with the s for clarity. @6;s

--Joanna
8/6/2011 3:53:38 AM
Dot 4 or not? 1. Yes that is correct. The determining factor is language context. This is just a proper noun mentioned in passing, as it were, and those French words are not being studied here. Context.
2. This is harder to explain. Even though the French is surrounded by English, the context here is still French. It's easier to see context in the bold French words in the text above because those words are actually being analyzed and studied. But in this sentence I believe the context is still French and the print provides the special typeface. I would use the emphasis and treat this phrase as French--no contractions and use accented letters.

--Joanna
8/6/2011 3:55:06 AM
Dot 4 or not? Forgot to thank you for including the print. Expecially when trying to determine context, it's very important to see the whole thing!

--Joanna
8/6/2011 4:17:20 AM
wide side-by-side columns On the vocabulary list and illustrative sentences at the bottom of the page-- Section 71b in the Interim Manual has been modified. This type of vocabulary list has a colon inserted between the foreign language and the English translation. Do no use two spaces--just a colon with one space after it. Ignore special typeface that designates language. This is also in the new rules under review and is authorized for use by BANA at this time. Understand that this might be ultimately changed when the new rules are published, but it is valid now.

I changed my mind about columns. This is not a table, but it is useful to treat it as related columns. Use stairstep with the vocabulary word and translation in cell 1 (there won't be any runovers) and the appropriate sample sentence blocked in cell 3. See page 77 in Braille Formats. You can refer to first column and second column in the transcriber's note, since there aren't column headings here.

--Joanna
8/7/2011 4:21:32 AM
computer screens in textbook Think of these print computer screens as pictures and as with any pictures description, just include the information that is relevant. A careful reading of the surrounding text will help you determine what is relevant information in each case. Also note the questions the student is asked. That also tells you what is relevant.

In all these cases, keep in mind that the student is not learning about the coyotes, but learning about how computer searches and web pages work in general. The coyote information here is just an example.

The text has explained that these are computer screen. You might want to enclose each screen in a braille box.

Page 943—start with what the text is asking the student to look for, search results. The relevant text in this computer screen starts with “your search for “coyote control” found ... etc. and then format this list as usual in braille. I think you can omit the underlines of the links.

Page 941—This screen is impossible for braille so don’t even try. Describe this as a picture. Note the questions on the side, especially the first one about the icons. It gives away the answer but I would describe that anyway. The purpose here is for the student to get the idea of how this works. Include what the text tells you is relevant in the description.

Page 940—is done as page 943, but note that the search results include web addresses. These should be brailled in Computer Braille Code notation.

I consulted with textbook and Computer Braille Code experts on this one! There were concerns about the hyperlinks in the screens on pages 943 and 940. They aren’t mentioned in the surrounding text and I personally tend to be cautious about providing information in a pictures description not present in the text. Is it safe to assume that the sighted students will just know these are hyperlinks?

But you have the entire book to look at and I don’t! I recommend that you judge from the entire book if it can be assumed that readers know about hyperlinks. Perhaps they are even explained elsewhere in the book. If not, I think you’ll be able to tell from the rest of the material anyway.

If you think it is appropriate to this book, by all means include the identification of the hyperlinks either in your description or by showing the underlines directly after all with braille emphasis.

--Joanna
8/7/2011 5:00:05 PM
puzzle You have attempted to combine the rules for small and large crosswords. Frankly, I'm uncomfortable with that because the result is something that doesn't conform to rules--it breaks both the rules for small and large crosswords.

Of course, there is no specific rule for this situation, but when that happens I like to find an approach that conforms to the rules that there are, as much as possible. Here is my suggestion. First I'll suggest how to braille the puzzle itself. Then I'll suggest modifications to the ACROSS and DOWN clues and to the transcriber's note that is required to accompany crosswords.

1. Braille this puzzle according to the rules for small crosswords. Treat the boxes with the letters as open squares according to the rules. Include closed boxes are required by this rule as well. In other words, braille this puzzle as if the letters weren't there.
2. Braille the ACROSS and DOWN in 1-5 like a multiples choice exercise. Braille the letters in each appropriate square like answer choices in 3-7. See attached braille file.
3. Place the TN immediately after the directions. I feel this is very important because the directions do explain how this puzzle works. It is NOT really a crossword puzzle.
Modify the TN given for small crosswords appropriately. Explain that the puzzle is brailled as a blank crossword and that the letters in each square are omitted and relocated in braille to follow each DOWN and ACROSS clue.

In this way, the student can access the original puzzle and can locate the letters by reading them in the clues and seeing which puzzle squares they come from.

--Joanna
8/7/2011 5:01:43 PM
puzzle Oh darn it. Forgot the attachment. Here it is.
8/7/2011 5:06:19 PM
puzzle And don't forget the letter sign for the ei at 3 ACROSS.

--Joanna ;)
8/10/2011 2:17:39 AM
Table of Contents I think you are referring to Rule 2 Section 7a(3) Unit and part headings. That rule, among other things specifies that unit and part headings must always be centered. What follows are some rules about these headings with regard to blank lines. What is not clear here is whether the chapter heading is also centered. However, assume that it is because in the next subsection topic headings are defined and rules tof those are given. I think the unit and part headings are specified as being placed above chapter headings because unit and part headings are often printed in novel locations, like alongside in a margin, for instance, or some in some visually pleasing arrangement.

Here's the deal--in contents, unlike other places, there is a blank line preceding a centered heading, but NO blank line following. If there is more than one centered heading, the blank line precedes only the first heading and the rest of the centered headings follow each other with no blank line because there cannot be a blank line AFTER a centered heading. If your chapter heading is centered, it falls in that rule.

--Joanna
8/11/2011 6:09:25 PM
By on the Title Page I do not see that the rule in the LOC course says the word "by" must be spelled out. Do you mean uncontracted? And in any case, if you inquiring about rules in Literary braille, you need to post them in the Literary Braille forum, because that's where the expertise is for those rules.

Textbooks formatting says that the word by is used only if in print. When transcribing a textbook, follow textbook rules. I doubt very much that there is a rule in any rule book that says "by" is not to be contracted.

--Joanna
8/11/2011 9:05:30 PM
Adjoining or Consecutive Box Lines Rule 6 Section 3d explains very clearly exactly how to do vertically adjoining boxes. Formats Ex. 23 shows exacatly what it looks like. Although the example refers to side by side boxes, the same procedures applies to vertically adjoining boxes such as those shown on your print page. Thanks for sending that page! Very helpful.

--Joanna
8/15/2011 6:51:17 PM
Unusual page numbering Are ALL the print pages numbered with this TX as well, as in TX1 TX2? With regard to the sample you sent, could you send an actual braille file or use the braille font that that is built-in to the forum? It looks like you have a second termination after hyphen and I'm not clear on the reason for it.

You're right, this is certainly unusual. If you could respond to the above I would appreciate it. If you could send an actual print page with this numbering, I'd appreciate that too. I do have an idea for this, but I want to be sure I understand the situation. Also, I may want to consult with some other people.

--Joanna
8/16/2011 5:45:55 PM
Unusual page numbering I did have an idea for this and ran it by Lynnette. She suggested something much better. Use the regular lettered numbering for the Arabic print pages TX1, TX2, etc.
,,tx#a
,,tx#b

For the Roman numbers, capitalize the T and the W separately in braille. Then there is no need for the termination sign, which is clumsy and not really right here.

TXi ,t,x;i
TXvii ,t,x;vii

--Joanna
8/16/2011 5:47:37 PM
Textbook vs. LOC Formatting That is essentially correct, yes. Sometimes literary rules are needed in a textbook for matters of braille code only, like contraction usage and so forth.

--Joanna
8/16/2011 7:05:25 PM
Vocabulary On page 246 treat that vocabulary as a list in 1-3. I hope that's what you meant--not 3-1. On page 250 treat those definintion as marginal notes in 7-5. OMIT the Vocabulary heading. On the Transcriber's Note page say that the "Vocabulary" heading for definitions in the margin is omitted in braille.

--Joanna
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