# Italics Usage – Nemeth Problem

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• #26217
Cindy
Participant

I'm attaching information from one of our Nemeth braillist.

(Now that UEB is the official code, for questions pertaining to Nemeth/Encapsulation, do you want the posts to go through UEB and/or Mathematics?)

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#26260
claurent
Moderator

Cindy - you can post these questions wherever you feel the most comfortable.  I don't mind answering them!

I've repeated the questions here for those who can't see/use the attachement.  My answers are in bold and have lines around them for ease of reading.

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Question 27. The correct answer is B. The probability that the fourth player will draw a yellow card = the number of yellow cards left in the deck after the first three draws/the number of cards of all colors left in the deck after the first three draws = 10-3/10+10+10-3 = 7/27. If you didn't take into account the 3 yellow cards that were previously drawn, you probably chose A or C, the most common incorrect answers.

The “lefts” in the numerator and denominator are in italics. Do we treat the italics as UEB or Nemeth? I’ve read where the opening Nemeth terminates type-form, but it doesn’t say not to use UEB type-form within Nemeth mode.

If its Nemeth, do we use the Type-Form Indicator for Words, Phrases, and Mathematical Statements or the Type-Form Indicators for Letters, Numerals, and Compound Expressions.

Neither truly follows Nemeth Code:

• section 32b states … When the ink-print shows an italicized word or an italicized phrase consisting of one or more items which both begins and ends with a word, the rules of English Braille concerning italics must be observed. … Since it’s only a word we cannot use Type-Form Indicator for Words, Phrases, and Mathematical Statements.
• left isn’t a letter, numeral, nor a compound expression, and although the symbol is the same as the EBAE emphasis it’s an NC character.

Which do we use?

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You cannot use UEB indicators within Nemeth mode so you must use the Nemeth indicator for italics.  In this case, it would be dots 46 (which is the Nemeth indicator for a word in italics).

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In Lesson 19, the Exercise it says that there is no need for a TN page, however in the Rules of UEB Section 7.6.1 it states:

Use one-cell (nonspecific) quotation marks 8 and 0 for the predominant quotation marks in the text in all instances where the specific form of the quotation marks ("double", "single", "Italian" or  "nondirectional") has no significance, that is, in the great majority of cases<u>. Indicate the print form of the nonspecific quotation marks on the symbols page or in a transcriber's note</u>.

In The House  the curled quotation marks are use. (They are not listed on the SSP either.)

Is this an oversight or am I misreading 7.6.1 in some way.

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I believe that the instructions in Lesson 19 just mean that they are not requiring a Transcriber's Notes page for their purposes.  I am reading 7.6.1 of the UEB guidelines and I see what you are asking about...I believe that the information about non specific quotation marks is only required on the Special Symbols page or in a Transcriber's note if there is more than one type of quotation mark used in a text and there needs to be some type of distinction.  I realize that 7.6.1 does not actually say that...but I do know that the quotation marks are not required on the special symbols page...so that's what I'm basing my logic on.  I will ask the ICEB committee for clarification and if I find out anything different, I will let you know right away.

Cindi

#26413
claurent
Moderator

I got a reply to the question about 7.6.1 and quote marks.

"A little background might put this provision into perspective.  In the original design of UEB, all quotation marks were two cells and had specific designations so the reader would know exactly what sign was used in print.  The feedback from samplers sent to people around the world was that everyone disliked the two-cell sign and wanted the one-cell quotation marks back.  This made the provisions for quotes much more complex since the one-cell signs can create confusion in some situations.  It also meant that the reader would not know which print sign was being used.  That's why the last sentence of 7.6.1 is there.

The intent of the rule is to inform the reader what the nonspecific (one-cell in braille) quotes are representing in the print - whether double, single, Italian or nondirectional."

So there you go.  According to UEB a note IS required on the TN page about quotes (or you could put the symbols on the SS page and explain them there).

Cindi

• This reply was modified 7 years ago by claurent.
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