[kdejute]

Lynda,

In this specific instance, we are saying that "41 minutes 56.23 seconds" is one value and so must be dealt with as a whole. So, because "56.23" must be in Nemeth, the rest of this value must also be in Nemeth.

In other words, "72 minutes" would not need to be in Nemeth. Similarly, "72 minutes 12 seconds" would not have to be in Nemeth.
On the other hand, "43.5 minutes" would have to be in Nemeth. And "43.5 minutes 12 seconds" would have to be altogether in Nemeth.

Does that help to make the situation more clear?

–Kyle

[kdejute]

I must change part of my response. Some welcome insight from another transcriber leads to the following conclusion:

Although 41 minutes is not in itself technical material, the BANA committee has discussed this and unanimously agrees that the whole expression (41 minutes 56.23 seconds) would be enclosed in switch indicators as opposed to parts of a single expression being transcribed in two different codes. This really is a single expression, not two separate ones.

Thank you for your patience and understanding as we ALL continue to learn about the relationship between UEB and Nemeth Code!

--Kyle

[kdejute]

Susan,

Excellent questions. Thank you for bringing these up.

In the first example you describe, only "0.1 mile" should be in Nemeth switch indicators; "per" and "hour" are just words and so should be transcribed in UEB. We would treat "0.5 hour per day" the same way--with only "0.5 hour" within Nemeth switch indicators.

In the second example you describe, really only "56.23 seconds" must be in Nemeth mode. No part of "41 minutes" is technical/mathematical material. Since we do not want to overextend the Nemeth mode, I would say it needs to be restricted to the decimal and its related unit of measure.

The forum did not allow the scan of your example page to upload, because the file was too large, so my response is based only on the, quite well written, text of your question.

Thank you again for laying these examples on the table; you are really helping us interpret and clarify the Guidance.

Cheers!

--Kyle

[kdejute]

The ASCII for the appropriate braille for IV.37 is ,,iv".37

 

The dot 5 is necessary to make it clear that the point-three-seven is not a subscript.

 

[kdejute]

Lynda,

I'm glad you brought this up.

BANA has published two documents providing rules for using Nemeth Code and UEB together. The first was "Provisional Guidance for Transcription Using the Nemeth Code within UEB Contexts" (approved November 2014). The second, and current, is "Guidance for Transcription Using the Nemeth Code within UEB Context" (approved June 2016). This replaces the first publication and is now the only document dealing with using Nemeth Code within UEB that is available from BANA's website. It provides expanded and more honed rules than did the Provisional Guidance.

This Ask an Expert thread was started when only the more brief Provisional Guidance was available, before the release of the current Guidance.

 

--Kyle

• This reply was modified 8 years, 11 months ago by kdejute. Reason: add specific dates for documents' approvals

[kdejute]

Lynda,

I tend now to agree with your assessment.

The Guidance for Transcription Using the Nemeth Code within UEB Contexts helps to clarify this point in item #5 under Additional Guidelines.

5. Measurement units (e.g., feet, ft., min) adjacent to related numbers transcribed in Nemeth Code are part of the technical expression and are transcribed within the Nemeth switch indicators."

Now that we have the Guidance to study (This document was not available when Trumbull and I started this discussion.), I think we can conclude that measurement units which should be included in Nemeth mode are those which are standard units of measure, namely from the US customary units system, the metric system, and the International System of Units. Since, "bag" is not such a "measurement unit," it should not be transcribed within Nemeth switch indicators.

Of course, Trumbull provided the best, most consistent transcription he could given the information available at the time. With the full Guidance now available, I think we would transcribe “1/2 of each bag of popcorn” with only 1/2 in Nemeth and “3/2 bags of popcorn” with only 3/2 in Nemeth.

How does that sound?
–Kyle

[kdejute]

Each of the sets of coordinates in parentheses should be in Nemeth mode, because they are enclosed lists. The "Q" unspaced from an enclosed list should also be in Nemeth mode. In addition, the shape/line label "QR" (especially with a line over it) should be in Nemeth mode. "x-intercept", "point", and "segment" can remain in UEB.

I hope that helps! If you have follow-up questions or additional ones, please do post them.

–Kyle

[kdejute]

First, thank you for the question. Second, all that I can see attached to your post is the same print example uploaded twice, once as "Example-1" and again as "Example-2."

Based on your description, I may be able to imagine the arrangement in which the carried numbers appear.

In response to your questions:
1) I would include the whole spatial multiplication arrangement in Nemeth mode. That is, I would put the open Nemeth Code indicator before the column headings and the Nemeth termination indicator after the end of the arrangement. This means that you canNOT use contractions in the column headings. Perhaps a key is in order?
2) I would suggest that you use the carried number indicator in the way that best represents the print layout. If this means that you place carried numbers above the indicator where they appear that way in print and below the carried number indicator where they appear that way in print, then so be it. You should include a TN explaining the multiple placements of carried numbers.

Many kudos to you for sticking with this job that has proven to be more than you anticipated. The braille reader will benefit from your dedicated and thoughtful work.

[kdejute]

<hr />

Kim,

 

I'm afraid I cannot direct you to any live discussion forums about the Nemeth Code.

This message forum and the others in NBA's Ask an Expert section may be good places for you to gather answers to some of your questions.

--Kyle

[kdejute]

There's that attachment! Thank you. My response to the attached question is below:

I agree with your treating the words "of" and "is" in phrases like "32% of $83" and "7.5% of [square shape] is 13.2" as technical material. In these instances, the words are part of the mathematical expression and should be treated as such (kept inside Nemeth switch indicators, uncontracted, with no single-word switch indicators).

Your use of the Nemeth general omission indicator is not incorrect, but it is not necessary. You could use a Nemeth shape to represent the print shape that indicates omission (Nemeth Code, section 115.b)

[kdejute]

Unfortunately, I see no attachment. It looks like the file is too large. If possible, can you divide the file into several smaller files?

Alternatively, you may be able to "zip" the file.

–Kyle

• This reply was modified 9 years ago by kdejute. Reason: added info. about "zipping" files

[kdejute]

Linda,

I would place the number indicator before the comma, because I would want to treat the comma the same way that we would treat a decimal that begins a number.

So, for something like 1,478 I would use the attached braille.

Thank you for the well-described question.

Attachments:

You must be logged in to view attached files.

[kdejute]

Susan,

Kudos to you for spending quality time with the Guidance for Nemeth in UEB.

First, if displayed mathematical material and its opening and terminating indicators will all fit on one line together, it is suggested that this be done.

Second, if displayed mathematical material takes up more than one line, then the opening Nemeth Code indicator could legitimately be placed  at the end of the text that precedes the displayed material or in the first cells of the line on which the displayed material begins.
The examples you reference illustrate these two options. On page 4 of the Guidance, the opening Nemeth Code indicator is placed at the end of the text that precedes the displayed material and so does not mess with the alignment of the linked material that follows.
On page 6 of the Guidance, the opening Nemeth Code indicator is on a line with the beginning of the displayed material. It does not muddy the alignment of the displayed material or affect its line breaks. If the opening Nemeth Code indicator in this example had been placed at the end of the preceding text, it would have forced another line, because it would not fit on the braille line with the end of the text that precedes the displayed material.

Last but not least, if displayed mathematical material takes up more than one line, then the Nemeth Code terminator could legitimately be placed on the same line as the end of the displayed material (if that material is NOT spatial) or on a line by itself. Most of the time, the terminator will fit and should be placed on the same line as the end of the displayed material.

So, when deciding where to place Nemeth Code indicators when nonspatial displayed material takes up more than one line, consider 1) alignment of the displayed material, 2) line breaks of the displayed material, and 3) line breaks of the preceding text.

–Kyle

[kdejute]

Good day, Susan:

Thank you for the question.

First, I would say you are right on the money with your analysis of how to treat a single fully capitalized literary word that occurs between two math expressions. The single-word switch indicator should precede the capitalized word indicator and the word itself. The following space would terminate the effect of both the single-word switch indicator and the capitalized word indicator.

Second, without addressing a specific example, I cannot give you a cut-and-dry answer regarding typeform on a single word within a Nemeth Code, because the use of typeforms within Nemeth Code depends on the meaning conveyed by the tyepform. For example, in the circumstance outlined on page 11 of the Guidance for Transcription Using the Nemeth Code within UEB Contexts, the typeform must be retained because its meaning is mathematical.
In the rare circumstance where you had to retain typeform for a clearly literary word that was located between two mathematical expressions, the single-word switch indicator should precede the typeform indicator and the word itself.
If you can, please do share a specific example where a typeform must be retained for a single literary word that occurs between two mathematical expressions.

Thank you again for the well-expressed question.

[kdejute]

Neither the Chemistry Code nor the Nemeth Code says that you should omit the English letter indicator with the chemical SYMBOL "N" when it is not combined with any other letter, operator, or indicator. So, in a sentence like, "We use N as the symbol for nitrogen." the "N" should be preceded by an English letter indicator and a capital indicator.

As for "DNA," if you are transcribing in literary code or Nemeth (not Chemistry Code), DNA would be double-capped and punctuated according to EBAE.

So, in your NEMETH-EBAE transcription:
CO (the chemical SYMBOL, or formula, for carbon monoxide) would be ,c,o
DNA (the abbreviation for deoxyribonucleic acid) would be ,,dna
RNA (the abbreviation for ribonucleic acid) would be ,,rna
ATP (the abbreviation for adenosine triphosphate) would be ,,atp
S (the chemical SYMBOL for sulfur) would be ;,s

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