Lindy Walton
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Aha, now I see the simbraille appears after I post! But the dot-5s are showing up as quotation marks. I'll try again:
$O #2;0^1"N+;43^97",TC
Thank you for your question. There is no way to show that the sub- and superscripts are left hand to the “n” instead of right hand to the “2”. Just as the print reader will understand from the context of the reaction, so will the braille reader.
I can't seem to get the braille font to work tonight. Here is the ASCII. I have also attached an image of the braille.
$O #2;0^1"N+;43^97",TC
Hi Barb. Thank you for your question. You may have opened a small can of worms.
Item 11 on page 11 of our go-to document, Guidance for Transcription Using the Nemeth Code within UEB Contexts, says "The opening Nemeth Code indicator and the Nemeth Code terminator should be placed on the same page with part of the expression to which they apply." It doesn't specifically say "print page". I see no problem with switching to Nemeth Code at the end of the UEB paragraph, before the page change indicator.
Personally, if this is a worksheet for a young reader, it might be friendlier to place the opening switch on the very next line
after the page change indicator. (Another option would be to wait to switch until after the first identifier "22" which would be in UEB.)In any case, a switch indicator does not replace a blank line. The line before item 22 will need to be blank.
Hope this helps.
LindyThis drawing poses an interesting question about the readability of what I call a "free-floating" minus sign. Without a nearby point of reference, (36) can look like (14) or (25). [Even if you were using the UEB symbols, which you should not do in a Nemeth transcription, (5, 36) is also ambiguous.] In the context of the subject matter, it will probably be clear that this is a minus sign. If you would like more clarity, the only solution I can find in our reference books is to borrow the spatial "minus sign within a circle" symbol from the Chemistry Code (3.4.2) which is used in spatial diagrams for exactly this purpose--to give clarity to the symbol. If you use this symbol (1246, 14, 36) I would also use the symbol for "plus sign within a circle" (1246, 14, 346). You can define these two symbols in a TN preceding the diagram.
I'm curious to know what you think about this idea. We are thinking outside the box!
Lindy
Hi Beverly. In a Nemeth transcription, we don't use UEB symbols for the technical material. I don't see an attachment to your note -- can you try again, and I will take a look at it? Thank you.
Lindy
This is a great example. Somewhere along the way we realized/decided that there is no reason you can't place the opening Nemeth Code indicator at the end of the line in instructions or a cell-5 or cell-7 heading. I would put it after the word "equation." in the instructions. See the "solution" brf file, attached. **Note that you need to keep "12/36" and its switch indicators together on the same braille line. In an embedded expression, if the math and one or both switch indicators will fit on the line (within current margins), do so.
Back to your original question, a student will get used to seeing identifiers in both UEB and Nemeth Code. The transcriber's decision regarding where to switch depends on the surrounding material. If you tried to make all the identifiers in an exercise set "look" the same (in the same code), there would be much too much switching going on.
Hope this helps. Good luck with your project!
Lindy
Hi Susan. It's hard for me to give an answer without seeing the text and also your transcription. If you could attach them, I think will be able to help.
Lindy
Thank you for pointing this out. Following the method suggested earlier (10.34) and 15.11.1, it certainly makes sense to put the opening indicator in the runover position of the commentary.
Note: I see that on page C-9 of Appendix C, regarding placement of switch indicators with spatial arrangements it says that "the opening Nemeth Code indicator is placed in … cell 1 on a line by itself if it precedes <u>unitemized</u> material" although I am not seeing this option discussed in the lessons. In this case, however, Example 15.11-3 is itemized material so it does seem best to put the switch indicator in the runover position of the commentary.
Lindy
Another observation: Your example shows two enclosed lists where the ELI will not be used according to the rules regarding enclosed lists.
Because we are not treating the colon as a sign of comparison in braille, the "m" and the "u" following each colon will need an ELI.
You have found a very interesting problem. Our code book and lesson book do not describe a colon being used in this manner. However, as you discovered, example (9) in §27.f does show this use of a colon. Although the colon is not the topic of 27.f, I would go ahead and follow the spacing used there. That is, when a colon means "such that" do not space it (even though it is spaced in print and even though it is described as a sign of comparison).
Regarding the use of the English-letter indicator within grouping signs, §28.a is clear. When an English letters in regular type is in direct contact with both an opening and closing sign of grouping, do not use an ELI. However when the letter is in direct contact with ONLY ONE sign of grouping (opening or closing) imagine that the sign of grouping is not there and then apply the proper rule from either §26 or §27. §26 explains when the ELI must be used; §27 explains when the ELI is not used. There are many examples in these sections which illustrate these rules.
Thank you for your questions.
Hi, Laurie. Thank you for your question. Your first transcription is the correct one. NC Sec.195.e is our guide for making decisions when a mathematical expression is too long to fit on one braille line (within current margin restrictions). Saving room is not our priority.
I noted some errors in your transcription -- please see the attached file, and check the RED numerals.
Lindy
Yes, I would say that when = is simply replacing the word "equals" in narrative, it doesn't matter where the line wraps, as long as the switch indicators are on the same line with the symbol.
Regarding use of two different symbols for "=" in the same transcription, we need to follow current guidelines. Changing that rule would open up a rather large bag of worms.
Lindy
Hi Fred. I found your post in this forum (UEB Technical), but I think you are following Nemeth/Chemistry Code for your project. The Chemistry Code is an adjunct to the Nemeth Code -- therefore, you follow Nemeth Code rules regarding typeform *unless* the Chemistry Code gives further or different directions.You did interpret this correctly in your list of conclusions--the main points being that typeform for states of matter is ignored in the braille transcription, and that typeform for concentrations is significant (has special meaning) and so is retained.
I wanted to let you know that your frustration deciphering the Chemistry Code is shared by many, and to assure you that an enthusiastic team of experts is currently working hard to produce an updated (UEB) version of the Chemistry Code as well as an updated (UEB) version of the Nemeth Code. This is a long process. In the meantime, a more thorough version of the "Provisional Guidance for Chemistry" is also in the works. Don't hesitate to keep asking questions as your project unfolds. In the future, please post them to the Nemeth section of this forum.
Thanks.
Lindy Walton
